Is this the same as the Country field on Discogs?

As you know, books commonly list the city where the publisher is located on the front page. Should that be entered? For example, if it was Zagreb:

Zagreb
Zagreb, Yugoslavia
or just Yugoslavia?

For the most part, I just enter the country, although the field will allow you to be as specific as a city. I don't see any harm in being more specific than the country.

How about books with many locations added?

Most popular books are published in London or New York but more often now a verso page will have every office of that company listed. I am doing a Penguin book now and it has 9 ofices and full address' listed. Down further it has printed and bound in Australia, so I will go with that as location for now.

Might need some guidelines about this, certainly to help stop duplicates and to be sure of when we have a unique release in hand.

I had Taschen release & I've added World as a location for now.
http://www.biblio.gs/book/3866-Impressionism

Is the location listed as 'World' on that Taschen book or does it just not list it? If it's the latter, I think it would be more accurate to leave it blank.

ok, will change it to blank

Probably need some more location fields, or have the location fields be linked to companies, I submitted a book that was typeset I think it was in France then printed in London, and then it had the UK, and Australian publishers listed. I got it in Australia, the "market" for a book seems to me to be at all the locations that have local publishers listed. One publication location I don't think will be adequate.

here is the example I couldn't remember: http://www.biblio.gs/book/5145-Nineteen-Eighty-Four

Printed in France and bound in London

There are also a lot of books that were published in one country, and printed in another.
Published in the US, printed in Hong Kong: http://www.biblio.gs/book/1544-H-R-Gigers-Necronomicon
Published in the US, printed in England: http://www.biblio.gs/book/6098-Witchcraft
Published in the US, bound and printed in China: http://www.biblio.gs/book/3319-A-Sorcerers-Cookbook

Currently I have been entering that info to the notes, but it would be nice to have a dedicated field for it, as the information can be found from a lot of books. As this is one of the flaws in Discogs (IMVHO), it would be nice to get it at least here.

Maybe the location field could be expanded to a drop down as well?
Published In
Printed In
Manufactured In
Bound In
(I'm sure there's more...)

I can imagine the country field being as problematic here as 'The Other Place'.

It can be, as the publishing location is not always so evident.

I mean I have seen people enter the location of the publisher from the title page as the publishing location, which I think is a bit too specific. That's just location of the publisher (and often contains several cities, sometimes in different countries), not really where the book was published.

@mirva:
Maybe the location field could be expanded to a drop down as well?
Published In
Printed In
Manufactured In
Bound In

good idea ... +1

Which is why I've left it blank on my submissions so far until there is a little more clarity or consensus around the issue.

It's nice to be in on the ground floor of something like this though, and see these things develop, and possibly have the ability to influence things.

It's nice to be in on the ground floor of something like this though, and see these things develop, and possibly have the ability to influence things.

Indeed. :)

Hopefully this is something the dev team will consider changing.

imho the location of publication is the town/country where the publisher has it's seat.

the location of the printer's, binder's etc could be an option with Credits.

imho the location of publication is the town/country where the publisher has it's seat.

The thing is that some users are entering the country where the book was published in, and some are entering the location of the publisher. It's not consistent.

Another thing is that entering the location of the publisher is not always the best choice. I have a book that's by a publisher located in England, while the book was actually published (AFAIK) and printed in the US.

I have some books printed in Hong Kong (not yet submitted), however i seriously doubt whether they were available there. Shipped back to the publisher/distributor.

Anyhow, I think we need publisher's seat and town/country where the book was printed. Eventually!

Like discogs, in the long run other owners will make valuable suggestions and propose corrections and we'll have a perfect database, way better than the largely free-format ones like abebooks &c.; or national/university libraries that only have quite limited informaiton.

I have some books printed in Hong Kong (not yet submitted), however i seriously doubt whether they were available there. Shipped back to the publisher/distributor.

Of course. I have such books too, especially it seems that art books get printed in certain countries, often not the country the book was published in. But things are not always that straightforward (as mentioned above), and that was the whole point of this thread. We need the different roles so that data gets entered correctly, and not like the country field in Discogs, which sometimes requires a lot of guessing. :P

I'm bumping this, hoping more discussion on the topic.

Yesterday I entered this:
http://www.biblio.gs/book/52414-Macbeth

Which according to publisher (located in New York) was released 'worldwide', with distribution information for Canada, United Kingdom, and Australia, and it was printed in China. It would be so handy if all the data could be entered:
Location of Publication: Worldwide
Location of Publisher: New York, NY
Distributed in: Canada
Distributed in: UK
Distributed in: Australia
Printed in: China

Why not a new role for coutry of print? Almost all of my books point out the place of print:
Printed in Spain, In China, in UK, etc. It's easy and it doesn't seem to give rise to controversy

I'm bumping this, hoping more discussion on the topic.

Yes please.

I like the idea of more specific fields. "Printed In" is clear and straightforward — it's going to be one single location and it will typically appear in the book itself. (Ditto for "Bound In" "Manufactured In" etc.)

"Distributed In" is more complex. For your Macbeth example, it explicitly mentions those three countries. One question: would we restrict it to only locations mentioned in the book itself? Presumably that book was distributed in the US as well, for one.

"Location of Publisher" — we'd probably want this one too. For this book, say: http://www.biblio.gs/book/56278-The-Sky-The-Stars-The-Wilderness
The 4th image has printed under the publisher name "Boston • New York"
But the address on the 5th image is in "New York, New York"
Which would it be?

"Location of Publication" — would this be where the publisher had the rights to sell the book? For your Macbeth example, does it actually say "worldwide" anywhere in the book itself, or is that coming from somewhere else? This might be besides the point, but the "Country" field on Discogs is probably in my top 3 least favorite things about the site. Hopefully we can come up with a more sensible set of guidelines for any similar field here.

"Distributed In" is more complex. For your Macbeth example, it explicitly mentions those three countries. One question: would we restrict it to only locations mentioned in the book itself? Presumably that book was distributed in the US as well, for one.

Well, yes, it was also distributed in US as well, as the publisher is located in the US. I was thinking that maybe the location of the publisher would make it obvious that it's basically a US book that was also distributed in other countries. But now that I think of it, maybe it's not so obvious. :-)

"Location of Publisher" — we'd probably want this one too. For this book, say:
http://www.biblio.gs/book/56278-The-Sky-The-Stars-The-Wilderness
The 4th image has printed under the publisher name "Boston • New York"
But the address on the 5th image is in "New York, New York"
Which would it be?

"Boston • New York", IMVHO. In the 5th image the address is for the Permissions department of the publisher. If the publisher has several offices in different locations, IMO all those locations can be entered.

does it actually say "worldwide" anywhere in the book itself, or is that coming from somewhere else?

That is from the publisher catalog, so there's a reliable source for it.

This might be besides the point, but the "Country" field on Discogs is probably in my top 3 least favorite things about the site. Hopefully we can come up with a more sensible set of guidelines for any similar field here.

Same here. It has caused (and still causes) so many problems in Discogs that it would be good to make it more specific both here and there. Currently it's not clear to users what to enter to that field, so obviously there's room for improvement.

Well, yes, it was also distributed in US as well, as the publisher is located in the US. I was thinking that maybe the location of the publisher would make it obvious that it's basically a US book that was also distributed in other countries. But now that I think of it, maybe it's not so obvious. :-)

No, it's obvious to me, too — I'm just wondering about how to use the field. Personally I like the idea of only adding a "Distributed In" area if it's mentioned in the book (or by some other reliable source, I guess); if we're adding it based on the publisher, it would essentially be duplicating that information, right?
The downside is that kinda it makes it look like it was only distributed in those 3 areas, but I think that's OK.

re: "Location of Publisher"
So you're saying go w/ the location(s) usually given on the Title Page, right? That makes sense to me.
For books that don't have a publisher location on the Title Page, would the contact address for the Publisher work?
And how about a zine, say http://www.biblio.gs/book/15868-Eurock-Vol-2-No-1
The contact address is in Portland, OR, would that be considered the "Location of Publisher"?

re: "Location of Publication"
In general, I love the idea of separating "Location of Publisher" and "Location of Publication" into two different fields. What you're describing is something like "Territory of Sale" where the publisher generally has the rights to sell a book anywhere unless specific arrangements are made to only sell in, say, North America, right? It's not the regions where a book was actually distributed in (which would be more specific and harder to know)?

The downside is that kinda it makes it look like it was only distributed in those 3 areas, but I think that's OK.

That was my concern as well. But if the "Location of Publisher" would be always sorted before the distribution info, it might be OK.

So you're saying go w/ the location(s) usually given on the Title Page, right? That makes sense to me.

Yeah. Some users are already using the field for this, so I think it should be included. I also think that it should be entered as it is printed, but we could discuss whether the locations need to be standardized as well. But that is probably another discussion.

For books that don't have a publisher location on the Title Page, would the contact address for the Publisher work?

Of course. Only some bigger publishers have multiple locations, smaller ones usually have one office in one city. And I think that works for the zine - and also magazines - as well.

What you're describing is something like "Territory of Sale"

Yes - and "Territory of Sale" (or something along the lines) might be a better term for it anyway. Having two such similarly named fields might be too confusing. Anyway, it's rarely clearly printed on the books, but similarly to Discogs, I do feel like there needs to be a field for the intended market.

I went through my submissions, and it looks like the following ones are more or less common, and are pretty straightforward:

Location of Publisher
Distributed in
Originally published in

Printed in
Bound in
Manufactured in
Made in

Location of Publisher
Distributed in
Originally published in

Printed in
Bound in
Manufactured in
Made in

OK, these all sound good to me. Add "Territory of Sale (Location of Publication)" to the list.

Hopefully these will get implemented.

To avoid typos and people using different spelling for country names, can we have a drop-down menu/autofill option based on ISO 3166-1 alpha-2, including former countries?

To avoid typos and people using different spelling for country names

I think the problem with a dropdown is that sometimes we need to also enter cities. So the dropdown would limit our options to just the country. In this case I think the free text field is better. Just fix the spelling if you find a mistake.

I thought cities aré not allowed in location section. I enter country name event if city name is shown on crédits page.

Well, in the second message of this thread seburns says it's up to the submitter how specific they wanna be. :)

Personally I'd like to enter what is printed on the book, but I'm not sure what the current field is for: the location of the publisher or the territory of sale - it seems to be used for both.

I like the idea of a dropdown menu for countries and even for cities.

And yes, I think Location of Publication should be clearly defined about its use: it's not where it's been printed, or manufactured. Released? marketed? I think management should meddle in this matter.

I like the idea of a dropdown menu for countries and even for cities.

That list would be epic. :D Unfortunately I don't think it would ever load.

Aprox 200 countries and 2 million cities (over 100,000 hab)
:)

Normally, when I cite a book, it's based on the location of the publisher. And for domestic publishers, I typically provide city and a standard two-letter code for state.

In the age of the internet, I'm not sure "territory of sale" means much for books.

In the age of the internet, I'm not sure "territory of sale" means much for books

What would you suggest then for the Macbeth example I posted a while ago? When the publisher says the market is "worldwide" but the publisher is located in New York?

I've been wondering about this - there's no wiki page for this, and I only found this topic by accident!

For the few subs I've made so far I've been entering the publisher's location (town, city, country) for the office of the publisher in the territory that the book was distributed (ie, territory where I bought it, when I bought new in a regular retail outlet - ie, not second hand). In one case I listed "UK" only since the copyright page specifically stated it was published in the UK.

Many folks seem to enter the city of all listed offices of the publisher and some only the country.

Is there even any need for this now that isn't covered by publisher entries in the credits section?

From this topic it seems there is still no clear consensus. If there is one, it'd be lovely if someone could say what it is :) and can there be a wiki page for it?

It'd also be nice (and, I'd have thought, easy to implement) to have a link to the relevant wiki page for each section in the 'add book' form. Reduce the number of excuses people (noobs, like me) have for getting things wrong.

Unfortunately there is no standard, so you're free to do whatever you want at the moment. I guess as long the location field is not linked, there's no real problem with that.

Personally I've been just entering the location from the title page, and if there's no location there, I check the copyright page. If there's no location on either page, I just leave the field empty, or enter the country if I'm 100% sure what the country is. This is after an advice from a librarian friend, but even she said that the method can be different in different places. I just wanted to stay consistent at least with my own additions, and have some logic to it. :)

Hmm. The main problem I'm having is that, without clear direction, there are so many ways you could add data that I'm almost locked into perpetual indecision, and end up not wanting to enter anything.

So, what is 'Publisher Location'? is the question. It's not the location of the publisher's office, or head office, since that would be recorded in the entry for the publisher (right?). The only thing that really makes sense is that it's the territory that the book was marketed or distributed (or the location of the publisher's office in that territory).

For books which list multiple offices for the publisher I'd suggest that those offices ought to be listed in the publisher's record and just one 'Publisher' credit exist in the book record. After all, there's only one publisher for a book ('first published' notwithstanding - a different credit), so listing more than one, or more than one location seems redundant. Ok, maybe there's a place for more than one for a joint publication, if such a thing exists, but that's a different case.

mirva, after having a good think about this (in the bath, where all my good thinking gets done!) I think your way makes a lot of sense, as long as 'no location on either page' doesn't count listings of publisher's offices, ie a publisher office address doesn't qualify as a Publisher Location, but mentioning a country/territory does.
For example, consider this page where it mentioned 'GB' without any idea what it means. I took it to mean it's the English version for the UK market (logical considering the book), so location would be 'GB'. I'm happy to be wrong here, since I just don't know!
This page (like a lot of books I'll be entering) doesn't list a location in the same way, just offices for one publisher. This case I'd suggest that the offices info goes in the publisher's record and not listed as separate publisher credits (as elahrairah as done for that book).

elahrairah, it'd be good if you could get involved too as I might be editing a lot of your records and I don't want to step on your toes (again)!

Apologies for overlong waffle.

Feedback?

The main problem I'm having is that, without clear direction, there are so many ways you could add data that I'm almost locked into perpetual indecision, and end up not wanting to enter anything.

Yeah, that was my problem first too, and I was too used to Discogs' really strict rules, I guess I was kinda thinking that I needed to get everything correct the first time. I wouldn't worry too much about it - everything can always be edited later. It definitely shouldn't stop you from submitting.

So, what is 'Publisher Location'? is the question. It's not the location of the publisher's office, or head office, since that would be recorded in the entry for the publisher (right?). The only thing that really makes sense is that it's the territory that the book was marketed or distributed (or the location of the publisher's office in that territory).

I think things should be kept relatively straightforward, i.e. the location should be entered as it's given on the book - which is often the location of the publisher's office. This is also common practice in book cataloging, or at least so I've been told.

This is probably because often the exact market of a book can be really hard to figure out. For example English-language books are commonly sold and distributed in the Nordic Countries, even though English is not an official language in any of the them.

This page (like a lot of books I'll be entering) doesn't list a location in the same way, just offices for one publisher.

Hehe, funny that you took Penguin as an example... I honestly don't know what to do with the Penguin books, they are really annoying... Sometimes they indicate the actual publishing office, but often it's just the list of their offices, especially on mass-market paperbacks, which also have prices in various currencies.

Is the exactly same version of the book distributed in all of the areas/countries? If that's the case then I think it's ok to list all of the locations. If not, then I would probably consider the list of offices only informational (i.e. "here's a list of all of our offices"), and would not pull the publication location from there. But that's just my opinion.

For example, consider this page where it mentioned 'GB' without any idea what it means.

Well, it's the ISO 3166-1 code for the UK, so it's very possible that it refers to the country. :)

It could also be a language code, but it's hard to tell without knowing if the other language editions have a similar code.

Question:
Parragon Books
https://www.bookogs.com/credit/20482-parragon-books-ltd
is based in the UK and runs offices in 35 countries all over the world.
Now, I have some german editions, crediting explicitly the UK headquarter as publisher, although they have an office in Cologne, Germany (which is not credited anywhere on the book).
Is United Kingdom the correct Publishing Location?

Location is a bit arbitrary at the best of times considering most large publishers are global.

I would credit Germany as this would be the intended geographical market (this probably extends into Austria and parts of Switzerland).

Does the book list prices consistent with a German market, or is the printer based in Germany? That might give you some idea.

No doubt about it's been made for the German speaking market.
It's printed in the UK too, but that is no proove for anything, as there are several large printing companies all over Europe, working across borders.
The publishing page states (translated from German):
The German edition is published by Parragon Books Ltd, Queen Street House, 4 Queen Street, Bath BA1 1HE,UK

I have at least two books by them, and even though they both list the same Bath, UK location, I've purchased them both here in California. The books seem to be intended for the English-speaking market, as they use imperial, metric and US cup measurements.

Usually the publisher's location is treated the publication location among book collectors and sellers, as stated on the title page, or the copyright page. It's not that unusual about the publisher being in another country.

Determining the exact market can be difficult because often books get published in multiple countries, and officially distributed in other countries without there being a single word about it on the book.

For example many Finnish publishers have published books in other languages than Finnish or Swedish. I have seen an English-language book by a Finnish publisher being sold in the UK, but the exact same book has also been sold in Finland. I think the location of that book should still be as stated on the title page (Helsinki).

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